ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
President-elect Donald Trump has made some surprising choices for his cabinet, like Congressman Matt Gaetz as attorney general. Even his fellow Republicans in the House were taken aback by that nomination.
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NICK LALOTA: He was not in anybody’s top five, 10 or even 50 list.
SHAPIRO: That’s Republican Congressman Nick LaLota of New York reacting to the news this week. Trump has promised to use the Justice Department as a tool for retribution against his enemies, and Gaetz would help lead that mission. Kirby Wilson chronicled Gaetz’s rise through Florida politics. He is state government reporter for the Tampa Bay Times. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
KIRBY WILSON: Thanks for having me.
SHAPIRO: All right. So Gaetz was elected to the Florida State House in 2010. What were the early chapters of his political career like?
WILSON: Well, for – in a lot of ways, he’s really been the same guy that he is now. I mean, he’s been a really fiery, conservative politician. Surprisingly, somewhat, he made a lot of good friends on the Democratic side because he’s sort of seen as a fun guy to hang out with. But, you know, in a lot of ways, he was just a product of the Republican machine that has been churning successfully in Florida for going on three decades. His father, Don Gaetz, was president of the Florida Senate while he was in the Florida House. And he was seen as sort of a bright young lawyer, but I think if anybody had said he’s going to be attorney general within 15 years, they would have gotten pretty good odds on that.
SHAPIRO: Here in Washington and the House of Representatives, he does not have a reputation for bipartisanship. He doesn’t have a lot of friends across the aisle or arguably even in his own party. So what changed between Tallahassee and Washington?
WILSON: I think what changed is Donald Trump. When Congressman Gaetz was running for the U.S. House, he was running in the same presidential cycle as President Trump, and he coasted to a victory in a heavily Republican district. And when he got to Washington, he realized that the way to leverage his power was not by making backroom deals and sort of winning friends and influencing people in the traditional way that one does in Washington but instead by using the bully pulpit of the media and sort of saying outlandish things and getting free press and earning the admiration of the highest levels of the party that are sort of addicted to cable news, like President Trump.
SHAPIRO: Did he have a record of accomplishments?
WILSON: No, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t an interesting political mind. He was one of the few Republicans to vote for legalizing cannabis. He was a star in a meeting on declassifying intelligence related to UFOs that gained a lot of press attention. But his goal has never been to change the law. It’s been to influence how people think about our government. And I think in that way, he’s certainly been important and a winner.
SHAPIRO: He’s made a lot of enemies among his own party. I mean, Republican Congressman Max Miller of Ohio told NPR that Republican lawmakers burst into applause when they heard about the nomination because they were giddy they could finally get rid of him.
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MAX MILLER: I want to get out a big bag of popcorn and book front row seats to that show.
SHAPIRO: That show meaning the confirmation hearings. Gaetz, of course, helped oust former House speaker Kevin McCarthy, and the House Ethics Committee was investigating allegations of sex crimes and drug use, which he denies. Given that track record, how do you think the Senate may approach his confirmation process?
WILSON: Well, do you know who else hates Congress and thinks they’re doing a bad job? – everybody. It makes sense that he didn’t really care about winning friends in Congress. As for the Senate confirmation vote, of course, it’s a huge problem. It’s a massive problem. But I’m not sure that 51 Republican senators won’t bend to the will of Donald Trump, who just won a sweeping victory and is as popular in their states as oxygen – some of them – no matter what they think of Matt Gaetz or his legal theories.
SHAPIRO: So to return to the Justice Department that Gaetz is nominated to lead – that Department investigated him and declined to file charges. Trump is explicitly putting him in this position to carry out a purge and to exact retribution. How is Gaetz likely to take that mission on?
WILSON: He’s made a lot of statements about the role of the Department of Justice as he sees it, even in the past before it was ever possible that he would assume the reins. He doesn’t see the Department of Justice as separate from the executive branch. He sees it as a part of the executive branch. And I think that’s why he is so appealing to President Trump because President Trump doesn’t want his top law enforcement official to hold him accountable. He wants him to persecute his enemies and sort of fight his battles in the courts and in the streets and in the court of public opinion.
So, I mean, I think there are a lot of personnel at the Department of Justice who are worried about their jobs and about how they’ll be asked to conduct themselves under an Attorney General Gaetz. And I also think that’s what a lot of voters wanted to see, and that’s why they voted for President Trump.
SHAPIRO: That’s Kirby Wilson from the Tampa Bay Times, speaking about former Republican Congressman and current attorney general nominee Matt Gaetz. Thanks so much.
WILSON: Thanks. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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