ZSJ on eve of Cup campaign
Friday sees Zack Sabre Jr’s first match in this year’s New Japan Cup opposite Ren Narita. Two years on from his last tournament win, the Briton is seeking his third career Cup trophy, and this time a win over the IWGP World Heavyweight Champion Tetsuya Naito at Sakura Genesis. We spoke to Zack about his 2024 to date, and some of the themes emerging from this year’s tournament.
Watch New Japan Cup live in English on NJPW World!
(Interview conducted before March 5)
Even within the capitalist structure of a wrestling business, there’s definitely things I could implement
–Before we get into the New Japan Cup, I thought we could reflect on the year so far a little, because it’s been so hectic so far
Zack: I think I’ve wrestled something like 19 NJPW matches already this year, and I wasn’t on Fantasticamania.
–There’s been a lot happening in and out of the ring. First of all, you started your year against Hiroshi Tanahashi just after he became president. Was that a shock at all?
Zack: The timing, maybe, but not the result. I think most of us thought that would be the end goal for someone like Tanahashi, with his tenure as well as his journey through the generations of New Japan. And he’s a very astute and intelligent man. So I definitely thought if there was going to be another wrestler president it would be him, it’s just that he takes so much pride in his wrestling that I thought it would be further into the future.
So the timing did surprise me, but I think the way he slotted in, there’s nobody more equipped for the job. I think there’s more avenues for a free flow communication between the office and the wrestlers now and not two separate groups in a way.
–Do you ever think that one day you would like an office job in wrestling?
Zack: Certainly having a role helping younger wrestlers as a coach appeals to me. I wouldn’t claim to have the answers in a corporate sense, but I am very opinionated and passionate and maybe that energy can be used in an official capacity some day. But in terms of what I’ve achieved, I’m pretty much still at the start of my career, so there’s a long way to go before ever having to think about that.
–A socialist in the front office of a wrestling company would be an interesting thing.
Zack: Even within the capitalist structure of a wrestling business, there’s definitely things I could implement. That would be inspiration alone, to see how far I can infiltrate… (laughs).
The Wrestling Observer has to name that technical wrestler award after me now.
–Obviously we’ve two big departures in Kazuchika Okada and Will Ospreay over the last month, and with people you’ve been very connected to in your career. Do you feel a sense of pressure to fill their shoes so to speak?
Zack: Well, even in a scenario where Okada and Will stay, I would still feel that 2024 had to be the year I become a top main eventer in New Japan. I’ve had that mindset, really since I started, but definitely for the last few years. But obviously there is a gap with the two of them leaving and I do feel I’m best qualified to step into that gap.
–How do you feel about how both left? There’s quite a contrast between their last matches, for example.
Zack: I think one had a very western way of leaving, and one had a very Japanese one. Okada’s farewell I think fit into the same way other Japanese domestic wrestlers have left, so I don’t think that was peculiar in any way. Ospreay wears his heart on his sleeve and he’s a much more emotional type, so I think the way he went out was right for him.
–Somehow I doubt Zack Sabre Jr would ever leave or retire with all the blood of that steel cage match in Osaka.
Zack: Absolutely not. I’m going out reading a newspaper and listening to ambient music (laughs). One day I’ll get on a train and nobody will notice I’m gone. that’s my fantasy farewell.
–Osaka was sold out that night, and even though you had Okada and Tanahashi in their last match, it was low down on the card. That cage match with ten non-Japanese wrestlers was on top, and you and Bryan Danielson was in the semi main. It said a lot I feel about the misconception that only Japanese guys can draw in Japan, or with the reaction that both matches had, how over foreign wrestlers can be in Japan.
Zack: I think you had this perfect contrast of mine and Will’s, not really philosophies, because Will’s not doing cage matches every night, but that’s the match he wanted to go out on, while me and Bryan was the culmination of everything I’ve wanted to do in my career. Both of those together resonated with the Japanese audience. So even though we’ve both been in the country for a while, it’s a big achievement.
–After your match with Bryan, he conceded that you are the best technical wrestler int he world. that had to mean a lot for him to actually say it.
Zack: Obviously wrestling Bryan the first time changed my whole career, and I’d come to terms that we’d never wrestle again. To have those matches back to back essentially meant so much to me because he’s the only one in the world I can wrestle that kind of a match with. It’s bittersweet because if (Osaka) was the last time we wrestled, it could potentially be the end of that style. I hope one day somebody will be as passionate about that style as me, but for now…
–You and Bryan have been the biggest proponents of technical wrestling.
Zack: Every big match that I’ve lost in my career, I’ve been so tunnel visioned in terms of going for a submission or wrestling and winning a certain way. I’m too stubborn to just take a win when it’s there. Even with Bryan in Osaka, pinning him with a crucifix hold that’s been a part of wrestling for at least hundreds of years is much more technical than knocking someone out. So even though we never tapped one another out in the end, it came from the horse’s mouth, so the Wrestling Observer has to name that technical wrestler award after me now.
–Bryan did suggest two out of three falls on neutral ground..
Zack: Maybe international waters (laughs). But I’d love to do it around the world. Somewhere that’s not a NJPW or AEW ring. A match like this can go to every continent. I’m not sure how big wrestling is in Antarctica, but still.
I’ve been ready for this my whole career
–With the departures we’ve had a lot of eyes are on the younger talent in this year’s Cup. You’ve taken Kosei Fujita under your wing of course in TMDK- do you have any insight on how the next generation of talent has been faring of late?
Zack: I’m obviously biased toward Fujita. But the reason why I wanted him in TMDK, and even why I called on him to help when I was involved with EVIL before then- you can just tell when someone has the outlook that’s essential to achieve success. Some things obviously have to be taught, but some things are innate. I saw it in Fujita in his debut match. For someone of his age to have the presence that he has puts him on a level above everyone else.
–That’s high praise.
Zack: If you look at the Reiwa Three Mus- it’s not really three, is it, you could say Reiwa Five or Six at this point. But I don’t think there’s been this level of young talent all at once in NJPW for quite some time. Certainly not in a few decades. They’re all very capable, but it’s about making that jump up to being a top level. It has to be about having a clear self image.
–Meaning?
Zack: You have to be able to communicate intrinsically and show people without telling them. Fans are very astute. They can read what you’re really about, and getting on a microphone and saying ‘I’m the Ace,’ that isn’t the best way to endear yourself to them. I think Tsuji’s got it most together in terms of what he wants, and it makes sense that he’s the oldest of that set in that regard.
–But you’re obviously a lot of people’s pre-New Japan Cup favourite.
Zack: With Ospreay and Okada being gone, I don’t think it’s a matter of me having to step up. I’ve been ready for this really my whole career- I won the New Japan Cup on my first try- it’s just been failures in specific matches that have stopped me. It’s not pressure for me, but it’s a lot of pressure for those young guys to show that they do belong at the top.
–You’re one of the four prior Cup winners that have byes into the second round.
Zack: I don’t like that, actually. My ego won’t be happy winning the Cup without going every round. At least I beat Yuji Nagata and Tiger Mask in singles matches recently.
Uemura was so set on his vision that now he’s bald
–Having a bye means you either face your old tag team partner Taichi or the man you beat to become NJPW World TV Champion Ren Narita in your first match on March 15 in Kaneoka.
Zack: Narita is certainly someone that’s much better off in House of Terror- I refuse to call them Torture (laughs). It’s much more interesting to see him this way instead of as a Katsuyori Shibata clone. He had to put himself in an environment where he could succeed, and he has a much better chance of doing that now, where he would have struggled next to Umino.
–You and Taichi have been apart since you took these new roles in TMDK and Just Five Guys. How do you think he’s fared in the last year?
Zack: Just Five Guys to me is entirely built on the presence and charisma of someone like Taichi. He’s an incredibly funny and charismatic person, and that’s brought the charm out of SANADA as a big brother. When I came into Suzuki Gun, I could see how much talent Taichi had, and I think it was restricted by the group at times. He had to get past a lack of confidence as well, but I think now he’s almost the de facto leader, in terms of presence. He puts out bangers, like that great match with Shingo in Sapporo, he helped make the KOPW title something worth winning, and yeah, I think we’re well overdue a chance to compete with one another.
–Ironic considering when you first joined Suzuki-Gun you were rejoicing at not having to wrestle Taichi again after all your matches in NOAH (laughs).
Zack: Well, he was a nightmare to wrestle then! He had no interest in wrestling back then, he’d spend ten minutes outside the ring! A lot’s changed since then.
–The other side of that Hyogo bracket is interesting. I’d assume you’re backing Mikey Nicholls over El Phantasmo, but then you have Yota Tsuji and Jeff Cobb which could really go either way.
Zack: Jeff’s also someone that hasn’t achieved his full potential here. There’s a vision of the world where he’s the top heavyweight champion.
–If we said you and Mikey was the quarter final on that side, your semifinal opponent would come out of the Yamanashi bracket, which has some interesting matchups. Hikuleo and Boltin Oleg-
Zack: -I’m looking forward to that one! Yamanashi might not know what they’re in for.
–Callum Newman vs Gabe Kidd is part of that bracket as well. Even without Will Ospreay, with those two and yourself, as well as Drilla Moloney in the junior heavyweight ranks, the British presence is still very strong in NJPW.
Zack: I saw a lot of potential in Gabe in the UK in his late teens and early twenties, and I think he fit very well in the Dojo system here. His natural personality made him fit very well into the BULLET CLUB mentality more so than the LA Dojo mindset. But it’s one thing to be a madman brawler in blood feuds and another to be in the confines of a tournament where you have to win to survive. In the G1 he had a lot of countouts and DQs, which is fine if you want to show how tough you are, but doesn’t get success. Do you just want to maim people, or do you want championships? This is a very intriguing match, and Callum has a good chance despite how young he is.
–Who do you think has the best chance of making the final four from that bracket?
Zack: Shingo is in a similar position to me, even though he’s a former World Heavyweight Champion. I think both of us are equally qualified and capable to be leading at the moment. I know the level of matches we have and he seems like someone I would want to go through. But at the same time, I want to wrestle this version of Gabe. We wrestled in the Cup in 2021, but he’s a very different man now.
–How about Uemura?
Zack: I want to see more vision. His technique is there…
–He’s not dissimilar to you in terms of having a clear vision of the kind of wrestling he wants to do.
Zack: I’m always going to admire technique, but if someone was coming after my hair like in Sapporo with Tsuji, I’m not sure I would be sticking to armdrags. He was so dead set on that vision that now he’s bald.
I’d like to wrestle this version of Finlay
–Who stands out to you from the other side of the bracket? Shota Umino is an interesting figure from that side.
Zack: The concern is that he is so desperate to be the next Ace that he actually says it on the microphone, that to me is revolting. You don’t say something like that yourself, that’s for people to decide and give that term to you. The role might come in time, but he needs to let it come naturally.
–Great-O-Khan always seems to be nearly but not quite at the top flight.
Zack: He’s so versatile that might even be his downfall. He’s very capable of being a top level serious wrestler, and then he’s equally happy fooling around and being in workout matches or whatever. It’s important to have a mix of things that your capable of but also enjoy. that’s a good thing for your career long term. But the balance has to be in favour of those serious matchups if you want to be considered a main eventer.
–David Finlay and TJP is interesting. Finlay went from winning the IWGP Global Championship in Tokyo Dome, to winning the steel cage match in Osaka before losing the title less than two weeks later to Nic Nemeth.
Zack: I’d be interested in wrestling this version of Finlay. But then again I go back a long way with TJ as well, and I’m interested in seeing what he does with the heavyweights.
–Who would you like to face in the final?
Zack: Well, in an ideal world, SANADA would have beaten Naito in Sapporo, and I would win the Cup and face him in the main event at Ryogoku. The two of us have wrestled a lot, but doing it in a big scale main event for the World title would feel fresh I think.
–There’s still the potential to beat him to win the Cup, and in his home town March 20 in Nagaoka.
Zack: That would definitely be a worthy final when it comes to a third Cup victory. Nagaoka has been kind to me in the past, so it would be interesting to see how far the crowd would be behind me against SANADA.
–You were behind SANADA in Sapporo. But there was a lot made of SANADA’s disinterest when it came to the promotional aspect of his main events. What did you think of his issues with Naito?
Zack: SANADA is a very charismatic person outside the ring. He isn’t an extrovert, but I wouldn’t say he’s shy either. He’s charming, he’s funny. To not reveal that had to be a deliberate decision, and I think it was a deliberate effort to not engage with Naito and gain that moral victory. Having a more subtle personality can be to his advantage, and I think any other opponent and it would have worked for him, but when you’re antagnoised to the point that Naito likes to antagonise people then you have to give it back.
If I’m World Champion I want as many people as possible to see me with the belt
–If we look ahead to the spring, the schedule is a very busy one, in terms of the matches and also the travel. Ryogoku April 6, then Chicago six days later, Taiwan two days after that, the Dontaku tour finishes and then Ontario May 11. It’s very intense, but do you have a vision of how you might potentially hold the IWGP World Heavyweight Championship through that period?
Zack: Well yeah, all of that. Before I came into NJPW, I was top champion in every independent I was in. I’ve had schedules where I would fly to California, defend the PWG Championship, head to South America and have a main event match, then back to Europe to defend the RevPro belt, all in the same weekend. Being world champion there would be that pressure, but that’s the challenge I want. I relish in that pressure rather than the calm.
–You want to be a true world champion so to speak.
Zack: When I was the TV Champion I wanted to present it to the world, to help establish it in as many places as possible, so if I’m the world champion then I want to do that times ten. Especially in Asia- I’m going to Thailand for SETUP soon as well, and I want to wrestle for all of our Asian partners. I’ve been lucky enough to spent all this time in Japan, but I’ve always wanted to explore the rest of Asia and take wrestling to new places. I think NJPW, really all of Japanese pro-wrestling should have more of a presence on the continent, and as an English speaker who’s used to the travel and I definitely want to focus on that. Australasia as well, where we can have shows in English in prime time is very important to us. Being the IWGP World Heavyweight Champion, I’d want as many people worldwide as possible to see me with the belt.
