Reacting to the Cavs’ 10th loss: are they showing their true colors or just a troubling trend? Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways:

Recurring Flaws Have Become the Norm

The loss to Portland highlighted that the Cavaliers’ critical issues are not isolated incidents but rather a developing trend. Pundits noted that opponents have created a blueprint for success against the Cavs, which involves attacking their abysmal transition defense and exploiting their lack of physicality and defensive rebounding. Unlike the previous season where they could impose their identity on games, the team now frequently plays on the opponent’s terms. These repeated struggles suggest the team lacks a clear identity and is building bad habits. At 13-10, the Cavs are not performing like a championship-caliber team, and these consistent, exposed flaws are becoming the norm rather than the exception.

Over-Reliance on Donovan Mitchell and Contradictory Coaching

A major concern is the team’s unsustainable dependence on Donovan Mitchell to be a “superhero” every night. While Kenny Atkinson has stated he doesn’t want Mitchell maintaining this high level of exertion for the entire season to avoid injury, his post-game comments suggested the team needs his heroics to win. This contradiction is troubling, especially when Mitchell’s “Superman” efforts are required against sub-.500 teams like the Trail Blazers. There is significant doubt that this over-reliance will decrease even when injured players return, as the habits being formed now may persist, placing undue strain on the team’s star player throughout the season and into the playoffs.

Inconsistent Offensive Role for Evan Mobley

Evan Mobley’s development continues to be a point of contention, as highlighted by his performance against Portland. He started the game aggressively, scoring 12 points on seven shots in the first quarter, appearing to be the offensive force the team needs. However, he took only seven more shots for the remainder of the game. This “push and pull” approach to his role raises questions about whether the team is hindering his growth. By not consistently empowering him to be a primary option and letting matchups dictate his involvement, the Cavs may be doing a “disservice” to Mobley and failing to unlock his full superstar potential on both ends of the floor.

Underperformance of Key Veterans

Beyond Mitchell and Mobley, the Cavaliers are suffering from the significant underperformance of key veterans who are supposed to provide support. Darius Garland and Lonzo Ball were singled out for their struggles. Garland shot a dismal 2-of-13 from the field, while Ball continued his season-long trend of avoiding contact, with only 14 of his 111 shot attempts this year coming from inside the paint. This lack of production from high-priced starters forces an even greater offensive burden onto Mitchell and undermines the team’s intended depth and balance, making the offense predictable and easier to defend.

Questionable Rotations and Lack of Accountability

Atkinson faced criticism for his in-game rotations, particularly his decision to stick with struggling players like Darius Garland, Lonzo Ball, and Dean Wade when they were clearly having off nights. Meanwhile, high-energy players like Craig Porter Jr., Thomas Bryant, and Tyrese Proctor, who have been praised for their “compete level,” received limited or no minutes. The sentiment is that Atkinson must show a greater willingness to hold his starters accountable by benching them when they are ineffective. Using the energetic role players could send a necessary message to the core group and address the team’s acknowledged lack of consistent hunger and effort.

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Transcript

NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.

Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Tonight, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs Beat reporter and we are coming to you guys after the Cavs latest loss 122-110 to the Portland Trailblazers. And Chris, I don’t think we gotta spend too much time on this one because we’re starting to see this trend continue. There’s multiple different blueprints that are being created by other teams to combat what the Cavs are doing this season or the areas that they’re lacking. There’s two main ones to me. One, their transition defense has been abysmal for the entirety of the season and two, their physicality defensive rebound percentage. So if you want to put it into a bag, attack the Cavs in any way you see fit and you might have a chance. So Chris, this was a game going up against the Portland Trailblazers, who are one of the worst field goal and 3 point percentage shooting teams in the league. But they are second in the league in offensive rebound percentage and third in the league in pace, at least entering into Wednesday night’s contest. So we knew what this contest was going to look like and that’s how it panned out. Chris, I just want to get your initial reaction to what happened tonight. What’s been happening all season. This team is now 13 and 10, 23 games into the season, Kenny Aguston asks for 25 games before a full evaluation. We’re here now.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, we just are. They’re not looking like a championship level team, this version of the Cavs. And there are a lot of circumstances surrounding that and there are a lot of pieces missing. Many of those pieces are very, very important to their success. But the truth is all these other teams that they play against that are perceived to be on the same tier as them, above them, right? In the same mix as them. Those teams just look faster, they look more athletic, they look hungrier. They look like they bring more activity to the table. And I think there’s a lot that the Cavs have to figure out here because they do have flaws, Ethan. And I think other teams around the NBA have done a really, really good job exposing the Cavs flaws. And you know, Kenny Atkinson was talking pregame about balancing the making the adjustments based on the teams that they’re playing, making the adjustments based on how the game is played today versus trying to stay true to themselves and trying to do the things that they can do. And be successful doing those things. I know that we don’t compare last year to this year because this year’s different, the league is different, the opponents are different, this personnel grouping is different and all that kind of stuff. But I think you can make the comparison just in terms of what the Cavs were able to do and how the Cavs looked throughout the course of the regular season versus what’s happening right now. And they are not capable of consistently dictating terms to the opponent. It feels like more times than not the game is played on somebody else’s terms. Boston’s on Sunday, like Indiana doesn’t count. But even in the third quarter, you know, Indiana was trying to dictate Durhams and it seemed like they were going to. And the Cavs defensively were terrible in that game against Indiana and it was just masked by Indiana’s wretchedness in the Cavs offensive outburst that they had. But it’s last year it was a situation where they said we’re going to do what we do and what we do is going to be better than what you do. They don’t have the ability to do that this year. They don’t have their, their ability to impose their will and impose their identity because I don’t think they know who they are still. I don’t think they have an identity, a clear cut identity. And it’s just a lot of stuff that they have to work through and they have to be really, really careful about building bad habits. Everything is about habits. Everything’s about figuring out what works, what doesn’t work, what lineups work, what lineups don’t work, who belongs in the rotation, who doesn’t. The regular season can be a grind, but it’s also informative and it’s also important from a building habits perspective. And right now there aren’t a lot of positive habits being built from the calves that they can just lean into as the season goes on. So they have to take a hard look in the mirror here and have an honest assessment of who this team is 23 games into the season. But at the end of the day, they do not look like a team that is capable of winning a championship right now.

Ethan Sands: I agree, Chris, and this is a conversation that we keep having. But the Cavs aren’t making shots, right? And Kenny Atkinson says you can still win games if you’re not making shots. The only way you can do that is if you have good habits. And it’s much easier to make bad habits than it is to create good habits because good Habits have to foster over a multitude of games in time, while bad habits can seep into a roster. And it feels like some of these bad habits are coming from years ago, playing down to your opponent, not allowing teams to get back in the games. We’ve been having these conversations for years now, Chris, and I’m starting to think and wonder if this is just who this Cavs team is because they aren’t allowing themselves to change the reputation that they’ve built not only in the regular season but in the playoffs as well. And it’s a difficult conversation because these are great guys, these are great players. Individually, you could say, oh well, if you trade Jared Allen, this team might get better. If you trade Darius Garland, this team might get exponentially better, right? And now we’re talking about a collective of what this group is doing or isn’t doing and that’s what’s difficult. And we keep coming back to this conversation that Kenny Atkinson has with us. Donovan Mitchell’s doing a lot. Donovan Mitchell’s doing everything. Pregame, he said and admitted he does not want Donovan Mitchell to sustain this level of play for the entire 82 game season. Because as we know, Donovan, even when playing less minutes last year, was injured in the playoffs because of how much he had to exert himself in situations where he felt like he had to save the team. Now we’re having that for the first 23 games of the season, Chris. And sure, Donovan has admitted to us that he is in the best shape he’s been in in his career. His body feels better and it’s not necessarily he’s more rested because that was last year. It’s just his physical toll on his body feels less because of how he prepared for this season. But then Kenny Atkinson comes into the post game press conference and goes, we need Donovan Mitchell to basically be a superhero every night. I’m sorry, Ken Yakinson, again, I have so much respect for what he’s been able to do for this team, but he’s going back and forth. It’s two different things. It’s two different topics. It’s two different answers when it comes to the questions that are being posed. And Chris, we talked about this last postseason against the Indiana Pacers when in the first game of the series Donovan felt the need to drop 30 shots. And now you’re telling me even when guys are out, he’s taking the same amount or when guys are back, he’s going to take the same amount. So why are we supposed to believe that when injuries return that these shots or this. These habits that Donovan has created are going to change.

Chris Fedor: Ethan. They should not need Superman, Donovan, Mitchell against the eight win, now nine win Portland Trailblazers who are playing on the second night of a back to back after what was a grueling night before that went down to the wire against the Toronto Raptors. They shouldn’t need Superman, Donovan, Mitchell in that kind of setting. And they ended the game, they lost the rebounding battle, the free throw attempt battle, the second chance points battle, fast break points, assists, bench points by a wide margin, made threes and they trailed Portland for 34 minutes. I know that the Cavs are missing guys. Jared Allen’s important, Sam Merrill, Max Struse, the these guys matter to the Cavs success. And maybe there’s a situation where they’re just not going to be the team that they want to be, that they think they can be until those guys return to the lineup. But in the meantime, playing against Portland, Portland, second night of a back to back, after all of the energy that they spent, it shouldn’t be that lopsided. Not for this team, not for a team that has championship aspirations, not for a team that has talked about all this different stuff about how different they are this year compared to years past and all the stuff that they’ve been saying leading into this season and in the first few weeks of this season, like it just shouldn’t be like this.

Chris Fedor: And it was and it is. And the hard thing, Ethan, is that performances like tonight against Portland, they’re not becoming the outlier, right? They’re not becoming the exception, they’re becoming the norm. It’s kind of who the Cavs are and it’s a dangerous precedent. And there are a lot of things happening here that I would think would make Kenny Atkinson, even though there is a big picture plan in place, even though it’s all about peaking going into the playoffs and getting better as the season goes on. If I’m Kenny Atkinson, I’m a little bit queasy about some of the stuff that I’m seeing from this basketball team because it’s happening on a nightly basis. We’ve talked about their inconsistency throughout the first 23 games. I think there is a level of consistency that they’re showing and it’s like these flaws continue to show up over and over and over again. And when you see it repeatedly, you start to ask yourself, okay, is this just who the team is? Do I have to reset my expectations? Have I seen enough to change my view on them? Like, these are legitimate Questions that you have to start asking when. When you see all these teams that are faster than them, when you see the same problems over and over and over again. You know, there were people inside the organization tonight, Ethan, that were really, really upset about the free throw disparity. And I totally get it. You’re going to look at the final numbers and you’re going to be like, well, they got 39 free throw attempts and we got 24. So I can understand why people inside the organization would look at it that kind of way. And they can look at it and they could say, well, is Denny Avdia Shay Gils’s Alexander? He got 17 free throws compared to Donovan Mitchell’s six free throws. But I kind of pushed back and I said, well, you guys couldn’t guard, you know, if. If you can’t guard at the point of attack and your defense is compromised because of that. And they’re getting anywhere they want to off the dribble, and they’re breaking down defenders off the dribble and getting into the paint relentlessly. What do you think is going to happen? The whistle is going to blow and fouls are going to occur. And when you can’t guard both from an individual basis and a team basis, you resort to fouling. You’re out of position. You’re not in the position that you need to be to defend properly, defend without fouling. So when the opponent takes it to you over and over and over and over again, and more than half of their shot attempts are in the paint, yeah, they’re going to get a whole bunch of free throws.

Chris Fedor: So, I mean, I just think you see the same things over and over and over again with this basketball team. And I don’t know how anybody could watch this and not be troubled at the moment. It doesn’t mean that it’s not fixable. It doesn’t mean by the end of the season, the Cavs can’t be the team that they want to be or hope to be. But we also just can’t ignore every problem that has shown up in the first 23 games and say, well, talk to me in March. Well, tell me how this team looks when April rolls around, because we would be doing a disservice to everybody that is watching this. It’s not good enough right now.

Ethan Sands: And to your point about just the overall numbers. Right, we talked about that. The Portland Trailblazers came in as one of the worst shooting teams in the league. They outshot the Cavs tonight. They look better shooting the ball than the Cavs. The other portion of this you talk about the drill penetration of the Portland Trailblazers. That’s Denny advia. It’s the 9 and 13 Portland Trailblazers, 17th in offense.

Chris Fedor: They have an offense that’s comparable to the Charlotte Hornets and the Utah Jazz. You know, this isn’t Denver, this isn’t Houston.

Ethan Sands: Exactly.

Chris Fedor: This isn’t New York, this isn’t Boston. If you have problems on defense guarding those teams, it’s more understandable. But when it’s the 17th ranked offense and you’re just answerless and you give up three 30 point quarters and you allow them to score nearly 100 in the first three quarters, something’s wrong with your defense.

Ethan Sands: That’s what I’m saying, Chris. Like this is a defense that is going to have to go up against the spurs on Friday. You don’t think that they’re going to attack you off the dribble.

Chris Fedor: They’re getting the spurs without Wemby and probably without Stefan Castle. But you’re right, they’re still going to have their hands full because San Antonio is just better than Portland. You know, you don’t want to overreact to one game. You don’t want to sound the alarm bells based on one game because this is the NBA and things can happen. But this is four losses in their last five and Donovan Mitchell even said it. They won against Indiana and it was on the heels of everything that Jaylon Tyson said and everything that Donovan said behind closed doors in the locker room. And what you want to see from a group is a consistent response, not a one night response against a terrible lottery bound Indiana team where you can just like stick out your chest, you can impose your will, all that kind of stuff, like you want to see it over and over and over again. And the fact that they just had that one game against Indiana where things went well on the heels of everything that was said about them over the previous 24 hours, the fact that they couldn’t build on that Indiana win, that’s troublesome. And now like you said, San Antonio is different. Now San Antonio’s 15 and 6. Yeah, they’re in the middle of this road trip so they might have heavy legs, they might be road weary, they might be wearing down because a couple of their guys, Wemby and Castle, haven’t been playing playing recently and they have to ask more of some of these guys that they’re playing and whatnot. But man, the Cavs better bring it in a different kind of way on Friday night against San Antonio and then Saturday against the warriors, whatever version of the warriors actually shows up. But when it’s Portland and they just, they have. So I think that’s one of the things that was a little bit troubling to some of the guys in the locker room. I mean, who they played tonight and the way that they played it just shouldn’t be as lopsided as what it was.

Ethan Sands: Evan Mobley looked like the version that we have been talking about, the version that the Cavs wanted and needed. And with Kenny Atkinson saying pregame, we don’t want Donovan Mitchell doing all of these things for an 82 game season, I was like, oh, okay. Seven shots in the first quarter for Evan Mobley. This is going to be exactly what the Cavs need against a team that is physical, against a team that is on the boards. You’re going to have him acclimated on the offensive end to make him more effective on the defensive end. One part of that story remained true. The defensive end was great. Five blocks, two steals. Evan Mobley, as Kenny Atkinson said, looked like defensive player of the year Evan Mobley. But he took seven shots for the remainder of the game over the next three quarters. After the first quarter, he was 4 of 7 for 12 points in that first quarter. He ended the game just having 23 points. So I’m thinking to myself, when are they going to utilize Evan Mobley to his full potential? Or when are they going to find a way to make him understand that he doesn’t have to make the perfect play? Because that’s something that Kenny Atkinson and Evan Mobley touched on tonight as well. We don’t want to push him too far into one bucket so he feels like he’s going to force things and then start committing turnovers because he’s been great when it comes to his passing. He had five assists tonight. He also had 10 rebounds tonight. It was an overall decent game for Evan Mobley. But when you look at it and you’re like, the first quarter was this, the rest of the game was this. And you can also make the case that he was exerting so much energy on the defensive end that he didn’t have enough to give on the offensive ends. Whatever. We’re trying to get Evan Mobley to be a superstar. You have to do it on both ends. Victor Wembanyama is going to be taking, obviously not in their matchup later this week, but he’s going to be doing what he does defensively, but then also taking 15, 18, 20 shots a game. And that’s just the Workload of a star. And I think this Cavs team is continuing to do him a disservice by trying to put him in this box and then being like, okay, we’re going to open the box now, you can do whatever you want. And then being like, oh, we get it. Close the box again. And I just don’t know what version the Cavs are going to be able to get from Evan Mobley when we talk about the playoffs if they keep doing this push and pull when it comes to his role and what he is capable of on any given night.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, I hear you tonight. Partially. It felt like it was kind of dictated by the matchup and you just don’t want it that way. You know, if. If Evan is this guy that you talk about in this this way and the Cavs talk about him as neck and neck with Wimy MVP candidate, at least on the periphery. All NBA player, one of the five best players in the NBA over the next half decade. You don’t want to get into a situation where how he’s used, what he does, how effective he is, is based on matchup and can change based on what the opponent tends to do as the game moves forward. He was really aggressive. He was in the paint throughout the course of the first quarter. He was imposing his will and that was an advantage that he had. He was able to take some of the smaller defenders against the Blazers and he was able to take them into the paint, he was able to bully them, he was able to beat some guys off the dribble. And then as the game went on, Donovan Klingan just said, you know, I’m not going out to the perimeter. Like, I’m not even bothering. I’m going to stay right here. And if you’re going to make shots, then you’re going to make shots. And I think a lot of Portland defenders started to look at guarding the Cavs that kind of way and Evan that kind of way. Like, you know what, we’re just not going to go out to the three point line and contest these things, not with the kind of ferocity that other teams do. So they kind of hung back and it was almost like a dare shot to Evan Mobley, it was a dare shot to Naquan Tomlin, it was a dare shot at times to Dean Wade. That’s how they chose to start guarding the Cavs as the game went on. And I think that’s part of the reason why, you know, Evan’s approach and the Cavs approach on the offensive end was different as the game continued to go on. But they need to continue to understand Evan is at his best for, for all of the things that they believe about him, for all of the things that they want him to do, for all of the ways that they want to expand his game. The best version of Evan Mobley, if they’re trying to win the game, is put him closer to the rim, put him in the paint, let him score on dunks and jump hooks and layups and put backs and those kinds of. Let him work his way to the free throw line potentially the way that Denny Avdia did. And I think half of his shots being threes, I don’t know that that’s the kind of shot profile that the Cavs would want. Even on a night against poor Portland where it becomes a little bit tricky because his primary defender was just not out there on the perimeter. He couldn’t physically get out there and he had no interest in getting out there either.

Chris Fedor: The other thing, Ethan, is that, you know, so much of what the Cavs talked about coming into this year was their depth and their balance, their potential depth and their balance on this kind of night where you don’t have Sam Merrill, you don’t have Max Strus, you don’t have Jared Allen, DeAndre Hunter’s gotta be better. Darius Garland has to be better. Alonzo Ball has to be better. These are some top guys in the rotation that the Cavs are counting on throughout the course of this year that the Cavs are relying on to be better. And you could sit here and you could say, well, look at the lineups that these guys are playing with. You can sit here and you could say, well, look at the situation and look at the role that they have. Look at what the Cavs are asking them to do. They gotta be better. That’s it. If Kenny’s gonna keep going to them and he did, If Kenny’s going to keep believing in them, and he is, they’ve got to be better. And after the game, after Darius went 2 of 13 from the field, 1 of 8 from 3 point range, he went back out on the court all by himself. He started taking a bunch of jumpers. He just got in a shooting session. I think he needed to clear his mind. I think he needed to see some shots go through the rim. I think he just needed to get some extra work. But since Darius came back, what has he had? 2 games where he was a positive for this team. Probably the game against Washington and maybe the game against Atlanta where he had double digit assists. But beyond that, he is supposed to be this dynamic offensive player where so much of what he brings on that end of the floor allows you to easier it. It allows you to overlook his flaws on the defensive end of the floor a little bit easier because he’s so good on the offensive end, because he brings so much to the team on the offensive end, because he creates advantages for this team on the offensive end. He’s just not doing that right now. He certainly didn’t do that tonight against the Blazers. And so much is falling on Donovan. So much is falling on Evan and both of these guys, Donovan in particular, just needs more help from these guys who are supposed to be there to help him. They’re supposed to take the pressure off of him. They’re supposed to provide a scoring punch. They’re supposed to provide an element of consistency. They’re supposed to make this offense better than what it has been. They’re supposed to make this team better than what it has been. And. And DeAndre and Nidarius tonight against Portland and, you know, really, for a large chunk of the season, just, they haven’t been good enough.

Ethan Sands: Chris, I completely agree with you because we keep having this conversation about the veterans, the guys that are starters, the stars on this team, Donovan and Jalen.

Chris Fedor: Talking about the most money.

Ethan Sands: Correct. And them needing to step up and play better. But I think that also kind of falls on Kenny Atkinson to go away from some of these players if they are having such big struggles. Like Darius tonight did not have it on the defensive end or the offensive end. And for me, I asked the question to Kenny Atkinson after the game because Lonzo Ball also did not have it tonight and hasn’t had it for a majority of the season. But what I’m thinking is, I understand Kenny not subbing in Craig Porter Jr or Tyrese Proctor for Alonzo Ball. You need his size, you need his rebounding, you need his defense. But Darius Garland, he’s 6 1. Craig Porter Jr’s got better defensive acumen. Craig Porter Jr is a better rebounder. Craig Porter Jr can do some of the things offensively that Darius Garley can. Tyrese Proctor, 6 foot 4, Kenny Atkinson. Ray, before the game about Tyrese Proctor’s defense, and then you’re not going to give him a chance. I get it. Portland’s long, they’re lengthy, they’re athletic, they’re strong. So you want to try and keep Lonzo Ball on the floor. But again, that archetype doesn’t bode well for Darius Garland. And in those kinds of matchups in those kinds of conversations, obviously, Kenny Atkinson will say, and he did, after I asked about Alonzo Ball. That’s my guy. I’m a keep trusting in him. I’m going to keep believing in him. I’m not putting words in Kenny Atkinson’s mouth, but if you’re not going to play Craig Porter Jr. More than 10 minutes, you’re not going to play Tyrese Proctor at all. After giving them so much praise, after giving them so much credit, after talking about the bench and the depth of this team, are those not your guys too right? Are those not players that you’ve trusted in to bring life, to bring energy when your starters, when your stars haven’t had it again? They didn’t have it again tonight, and they didn’t go too long.

Chris Fedor: The other thing, Ethan, is I think the Cavs players all understand, you know, if Kenny made that kind of bold decision, I think the players would understand because I think everybody could look out on the floor and see the struggles that Darius was having on the offensive end and seeing how he was getting exploited at the defensive end. So I don’t think it’s. Even though it’s December, and even though you do, there is an element of you’ve got to continue to go with your guys. You can’t lose your guys. You gotta instill confidence in your guys as much as possible. If they’re not playing well, you also have to have. You also have to have enough trust in, in your main guys that they’re going to understand why you temporarily went away from them. And if Kenny has built the kinds of relationships in the locker room that he says he has, and I believe that he has, he should have the freedom and he should have enough confidence to go away from guys if it’s not going the way that they need it to go, or if they feel like somebody’s better in a specific matchup or somebody might give something that one of those top players is not giving. I mean, I think everybody inside the arena tonight, when Lonzo Ball checked back into the game, when Kenny went back to Lonzo Ball, I think everybody in the arena tonight was like, what? What the hell is he doing going back in the game? When Dean Wade checked back into the game around the seven minute mark of the fourth quarter, I turned to one of the writers next to me and I said, are you kidding me? He’s been awful tonight. He’s not making shots, he’s not playing well defensively. And everybody knows I’m a Dean Wade supporter. And I think he can be an impactful player for this team. And I do think that he does some positive things, but tonight he wasn’t good. And I think you just, you have to read the game and you have to believe in what you’ve created here, that if the situation calls for it, that you’re okay going away from those guys, that you can go away from those guys and they’re going to understand.

Ethan Sands: Why it happens when we talk about Lonzo. And I was kind of trying to make excuses for why I thought it made sense, but I’m sitting here in my seat and I’m looking at the stat lines and I’m looking at what Lonzo Ball has not been able to do thus far into the season. I mean, he was one of nine from the field tonight, one of eight. And some of these shots that he took were just awful. And I don’t understand.

Ethan Sands: Why there’s been so much more leeway distributed to someone like Lonzo rather than giving guys who have you’ve continuously praised, as I mentioned, those opportunities. And the only reason that we don’t look at the Lonzo Ball stat line and be like, oh, my God, this is awful, is because in the beginning of the fourth quarter he was decent, but then he made a bonehead decision on the offensive end. You get a tip away, you’re running in transition and you’re on a run, you’ve cut the score. I think it was like down to eight clawing back in this contest in the fourth quarter. And Lonzo Ball, who is again 1:061:07,1:08 at this point, decides to toss a transition three up. It can’t be the play when the entire arena celebrates one three pointer that you’ve made the way that they have celebrated Lonzo Ball the last two times he’s been in Rocket Arena. The previous time he threw up the prayer hands because he had not hit a three. And now the arena erupted when he hit one and he kind of like dropped his head as he ran back to the defense in relief. You can gain confidence from making baskets. 1 of 8 from 3 should not give you that kind of freedom. Should not give you that kind of confidence.

Chris Fedor: Every time Lonzo has a thought to go to the paint or go to the rim, he stops or he passes the ball out. He’s taken 111 shots so far this year. 111, 14 of those. Only 14 of the 111 have been in the paint. You’re just doing the this offense a disservice when you’re not attacking. And that’s an element that they need from Lonzo. That’s an element they need from Darius, that’s an element that they need from Donovan. So much of this is attack the paint, force the defense into rotation and then create movement off of that driving kick, all that kind of stuff. But if he only plays outside the three point line and there’s nothing else that he’s bringing to the offense.

Chris Fedor: Man, it becomes really, really difficult to consider him a plus at that end of the floor. And it’s only December. And Kenny’s gonna stick with him because that’s his guy and he doesn’t want to lose him and he knows that he needs him, especially when the playoffs roll around. But he is make, he is willingly making himself very easy for the defense to guard by the way that he is choosing to play, by the way that he is staying out on the three point line, out on the perimeter. At some point he’s going to have to attack the basket. At some point he’s going to have to try and get into the paint. At some point he’s going to have to try and go toward the rim. If those opportunities are going to present themselves and if the defense is going to be sagging off of him because they just don’t believe in his shot, then theoretically that gives him an opportunity to get a running start and maybe create an advantage off the dribble and we’ll see if he makes some kind of adjustment. But 111 total shots and 14 of them coming in the paint. No, that’s not the kind of shot profile that I think the Cavs would want from somebody like Lonzo. And look, he’s not going to lead the NBA in drives. He’s not Shea, he’s not Donovan Mitchell. But there has to be some kind of balance to his offensive approach and his offensive attack. And it’s got to be a different kind of balance than what he has shown in the first 23 games.

Ethan Sands: I mean, Chris, if we’re looking at the stats, because I now have them in front of me, he averages the fourth most three point attempts per game on this Cavs team.

Chris Fedor: And he’s one of the worst three point shooters that they have.

Ethan Sands: He averages 26.9% from three. That’s the fourth worst three point percentage in front of Thomas, Bryant, Naquan Tomlin and Jared Allen. And right in front of him in that list is Dean Wade, who is 3.5, 3 point attempts per game and 28.4%. I just think when he drives. He’s not necessarily driving to attack. Sam Merrell mentioned this in a different conversation we had. Driving to attack the rim and score creates more gravity than it does if you’re just. If the defense knows you’re not driving to score, you’re driving to pass. And I think it’s a mindset shift that is needed. Chris, I got one last thing I want to talk about because I want to get out of here. Thomas Bryan got minutes tonight, is starting to get more minutes. I know he’s not going to end up in the rotation more or whatever, but like with Jared Allen out, I think he added valuable minutes, valuable energy. Even though box score watchers are going to say, oh, he was a minus 14. Sure, the entire team was bad tonight, there was no good of tonight’s game. Even Donovan Mitchell, who went supernova, ended up with 33 points, is still in the running for the scoring leaders of the NBA. But when we’re talking about Thomas Bryant, what he brought rebounding wise, what he brought energy wise, what he brought toughness and physicality wise, especially against the Portland Trailblazers team, I think that’s something that you need. And especially with his size being in the painted area, it’s different than someone like Naquan Tomlin. And you saw what he was able to do for the Indiana Pacers in their last run and I think that’s valuable for the Cavs. But again, Kenny has to give these guys minutes so that even in meaningful games, they can gain confidence rather than just coming in when, oh, okay, I’m only getting minutes because Darius or Donovan doesn’t have it tonight, or I’m only playing because we’re playing the Washington Wizards and we’re up by 20 or we’re playing some other team and we’re down by 20. So garbage minutes don’t do a lot for the confidence or the growth aspect of some of these rotation or role players. And I think Kenny continues to need to rely on these guys more.

Chris Fedor: It’s interesting, Ethan, because Kenny seems to recognize what all of these other guys bring to the table and he has singled them out on numerous occasions. And the other night following the Indiana game, or maybe it was before the Indiana game, one of the two. Either way, it was in Indiana. Kenny Atkinson was talking about how, like the compete level of Jaylen Tyson, the compete level of Thomas Bryant, Craig Porter Jr. Naquan Tomlinson, um, I don’t think I’m leaving anybody else out. Tyrese Proctor, when he gets an opportunity, the compete level of all those guys it’s different than some of the main guys that the Cavs are relying on, and it shouldn’t be. It shouldn’t be that drastic. But. But here’s the thing. Like, if it’s going to continue to be, then take advantage of it. If. If that’s the thing that the Cavs are struggling with right now. I asked a question to Kenny and a couple of the guys following the game. I said, what is the area that. That needs the most urgent focus when you’re talking about fixing some of the problems that have arisen here in the first 23 games?

Chris Fedor: And it’s clear that overall competitiveness is something that stands out to these guys. Energy, activity, hustle. Jaylon Tyson said hunger the other night. You put it all in the same bucket. You’re saying the same thing. You’re just saying it a different way. So if. If those are things that, that you’re noticing aren’t good enough, aren’t to the level that you want them at as a coach, and you have guys that are going to do that, and they’re not going to be as talented, they’re not going to make you as good offensively, they’re not going to give you the same kind of ceiling or anything like that. But if you’re trying to address the problems that you’re seeing consistently and energy and activity and all that kind of stuff that’s in that bucket, if that is what you’re seeing as a problem.

Chris Fedor: You have solutions. You have stated that you have solutions. You have stated that you have guys that bring it to a different level than some of your other guys. So if you want to send a message and you want to correct that, I do think maybe you have to give a longer leash to some of these compete guys, some of these energy guys, and it doesn’t have to be every single night, and it doesn’t have to be for a week straight or two weeks straight or three weeks straight. But if that’s what the game is calling for, if that’s what your team is calling for, then just go to those guys and see what happens. Kenny Atkinson worked under Steve Kerr. Steve Kerr does that all the time. And there are things that he does wrong. Not every coach gets everything right. But you would think that Kenny working under Steve, and that’s a tactic that he uses to try and, like, get through to his other guys, you would think that maybe Kenny considers that, and maybe moving forward, Ethan, he needs to consider that a little bit more. Because for the last two weeks, the compete level of this team hasn’t been high enough and everybody has admitted it and Kenny has admitted it and it, it seems like it’s kind of frustrating him of like, you know, I’ve got all these talented guys, all these high priced guys and they just don’t play as hard as Naquan Tomlin. Not consistently anyway. They don’t play as hard consistently as, as Craig Porter Jr. And Jaylon Tyson and some of these other guys. So if that is something that you see as a problem, isn’t it your job to address it? Is it your job to fix it or find a solution? I think he might have a solution and he might have to do that just one time, maybe two times. However many times it takes to try and get a message across, a message that is going to resonate in a different kind of way. And, and the best way I think that you can make guys see something is, is you can take away their time, their playing time. And again, I’m, I’m not saying it has to be every single night. I’m not saying that it has to carry over through the remainder of, of the regular season. But if, I don’t know if you start a second half because you don’t like the way that the first half went with like whole hockey subs where it’s just energy guys or you finish a game like they did against Miami, they had to against Miami because of who was available and who wasn’t available. But if you have to do that, you have to have a willingness as a coach to pull that string.

Ethan Sands: Chris, we don’t like using comparison because comparison is the thief of joy. But Donovan Mitchell pointed the finger. It was like, you know who across the pond is doing it? Oklahoma City. Yeah, you know what we want? That they have a ring and they are still coming in. So because somebody asked Donovan or Kenny about the hangover effect, there can’t be a hangover effect from 64 wins when you get bounced from the Eastern Conference semifinals. Donovan and this team knows that. They know that there’s competitive teams that are willing to do what it takes even after getting there. That’s what creates a dynasty that we’ve been talking about with okc. Right. The Cavs need that kind of compete level and again, not trying to compare, but internal competition. Frustration with losing is good. OKC has players again, one of the best defensive teams. The team that has the most spread out defensive first players have people internally competing to see who can win the steals title. That’s their identity. The defensive end. The Golden State Warriors, Jimmy Butler and Stephen Curry before the season, had the free throw percentage thing. Don’t know how well Jimmy Butler’s holding up in that at this point. But there’s internal competition that allows players to grow, strive for different things, or just have a goal, and maybe that’s what’s needed. And Evan Mobley said it after a game previously, that frustration can be good because it helped him early into the season to get to where he is now. But we also don’t know if everybody’s going to respond on the same way because we don’t know how his team responds to adversity just yet. We’re still trying to figure that out.

Chris Fedor: Don’t know that the Cavs are capable, this version of the Cavs are capable of taking that kind of approach that you’re talking about during the regular season and just flipping it at the right time. We don’t know that. This isn’t LeBron’s Cavs here. This isn’t Steph’s warriors here. Okay? Like, this is the kind of team that has to do the things right during the regular season to get them to the point that Oklahoma City is already at, to get them to the point that the Denver Nuggets are already at, to get them to the point that, you know, teams like Minnesota trying to get to, teams like the New York Knicks in the Eastern Conference trying to get to. So, like, it’s a struggle for me because I totally understand, like, why some of the mentality from the Cavs is the regular season doesn’t matter. We won 64 games last year and we still lost in the second round of the playoffs. So what do we have to show for it? What did it really mean to win 64 games? I totally understand that mentality, but they just haven’t accomplished anything. They haven’t accomplished anything to have that kind of approach to the regular season. And I like the way that Donovan responded to that question tonight about the quote, unquote, hangover. How could you possibly have a hangover when you didn’t win a championship, when you didn’t get to the conference finals? How could you possibly, like, not come into this season with a focus, with a determination, with a different kind of mentality, with a level of fuel based on everything that happened to you last year in the playoffs? And Oklahoma City went and won the championship last year by doing things the right way, leading into that, and now here they are on the heels of that championship, still doing things the right way, because that’s what it takes to win a championship. That’s what it takes to learn those things. And I don’t know that the Cavs have learned those things to the level that they need to to have this kind of approach to the regular season or to treat the regular season the way that it appears that they are treating it from a mental standpoint.

Ethan Sands: Chris, the Cleveland Cavaliers are currently seventh in the Eastern Conference. They would be in the Play in tournament this team has mentioned. As you just said, even the number one seed didn’t mean anything. They could win 82 games and it wouldn’t mean anything. I can tell you one thing for sure, this team does not want to be in the Play in tournament when it comes to this postseason because they are proving each and every night in the regular season that any team can give them a run for their money. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions. We’ll get to those in tomorrow’s podcast. So send in your questions, send in your name and your city and get a shout out on the pod. Only way you can, you can do this signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Calves from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.